utica oil burner keeps going out.
i bought a new house with 10 year old utica oil burner for baseboard and hot water. i had it serviced about 6 mths ago and the tech said it still had a few years left in and that it looked ok. my problem has been that recently (seems as if it gets worse the colder it is but im not sure) the boiler will work for a few hours or days but it will eventually not fire up. we keep the house pretty cold so we usually notice with the lack of hot water first. we end up having to go down stairs to hit the reset button and it fires up and everything is ok for a little while then it goes down again. it doesnt seem to matter if you try turning up the termostat or calling for hot water it doesnt even try to fire. ive replaced the thermostat twice just because i had extra lying around and figured it couldnt hurt. when i do hit the button and puff of smoke comes out the vent pipe. ive got the honeywell aquastat set to 160l-180h with a 15 diff if it helps. im thinking its the flame sensor but want to be sure. how do i go about locating and checking/cleaning it? If it continues to run heat after you reset it, I doubt the problem is the flame sensor (cad cell). There are a lot of possibilities but the most common are: Fouled nozzle, electrodes not adjusted properly, weak ignition transformer. Any, a combination, or others could be the problem. Are you at all familiar with oil burners? only vaguely. im better with propane. it does run fine after you reset it though. it could go for days or hours im not sure what triggers it. The fact it can run for hours or days is getting more frequent, tends to make me think it is a burner motor rather than something else but it's hard to tell. The next time it needs to be reset a few seconds after you get it fired, open the flame observation door look at the flame. Make mental note of the color of the flame. Let the burner run for 5 or 10 minutes shut it off. Leave off for 5-10 minutes start it back up. Again look at the flame. If the flame is now brighter light yellow where it was more orange or dark yellow before, you had excess fuel in the chamber which has now burned off. This pretty well eliminates the motor. well heres an update. the boiler continues to go out still but now wont even light at times. i opened the door and cleaned the nozzle with a clean rag being careful not to hit the electrodes. it was really gummed up with crap. it will work fine for a few days then go back to its old habit. now ive got to open the door and clean it every few days due to it not lighting but it looks clean when i do it. the door now has a broken hinge on it from opening to many times and im having a real hard time finding spares. im just trying to eek out a bit more time from it before i have the money for another service guy. at this point im seriously considering a new one. ive seen newer starfire 3's like mine for $2000. thats a little more than double what ive already dropped in it this year and im looking at more now. It sounds like the boiler's fuel system is in need of a cleaning. You can change the nozzle, filter, pump screen yourself. i agree. filter is easy, just gotta get the part number. dont know anything about the pump screen and i looked at replacing the nozzle but i was worried about removing the elctrodes and not getting them back right. i cant find any real service manual for this thing so im piecing things together a little at a time. one last thing. in the firing chamber their is a lot of insulation on the floor of it. looks like insulation from the door area but nones missing. should i leave it or pull it all out and make sure the chamber is clean and debris free. IF after changing the screen, nozzle, and filter you still experience the same problem, you should suspect one of the following: 1)incorrectly adjusted electrodes 2)nozzle assembly setback is incorrect 3)a weak HV transformer 4)incorrect pump pressure setting 5)loose T-T jumper (if it has one) 6)bad primary relay 7)loose wire nut connection to electrical connections to primary relay 8)weak or binding blower motor 9)drive coupling too 'long' (if recently replaced) causing binding thus preventing motor from starting 10)obstruction in squirrel fan area (loose wire hanging, dropped nut or screw) 11)fuel line needs a good CO2 blow 12)BAD NOZZLE The BOLD ones are the ones that I think may be the problem. The BOLD BLUE underlined ones I would check first! Check the easy (simple) stuff first! So you see, it's simple BTW -----it makes alot of sense what GRADY said about looking at the flame color. If you really do not want to spend the time and don't enjoy the headache, why not just replace the entire burner for about $325.00? They have them at Home Depot, Lowe's, and boiler supply houses. If you do not feel comfortable doing this, maybe a service guy can do it for you---------still cheaper than a new boiler. Good luck! Charlie P.S. Isn't it funny how the toothache disappears just before you get to the dentist? In other words: It's difficult to find the problem if it isn't happening while you are looking at it! If you are uncomfortable working on it. Stop now call a service person. Most are glad to show you do simple maintenance such as changing the nozzle, filter, pump screen as well as cleaning adjusting the electrodes. Better to pay someone learn to do it right than really mess something up. its not that im uncomfortable with doing it just unfamiliar with it. ill go as far as i can with out the help then call them. somethings i jsut dont know about so ill list what i can and cant do. 1-cant find any info on proper settings. it does light and usually a for a while after i clean the nozzle area. im pretty careful about not disturbing them and i have no idea check if they are bad or not. 2-again i dont know what the set back on this should be either. 3-dont know hiow to diagnose/ 4-dont know proper pressure. 5-dont think it has one. 6-dont know check. 7-checked wires but will check again. 8-motor sounds fine with no delays or hesitation 9-motor starts everytime you hit the reset button other than that it always works. 10-ill check that 11-newer fuel line that was blown out by tech last time. 12- i think thats an issue but am hesitant to remove with out knowledge of proper settings for electrodes. im going down to the pit tomorrow to change out the filter and work on getting the broken pins out of the door hinge.ill also look into the suggested areas to find out what i can. replacing the whole unit sounds like a good idea but ill try to save/ learn about this one. thanks guys. well heres the update. changed the filter, the old one was really bad and had lots of crud in it. flushed the line somewhat with fresh oil. cleaned the pump filter (im not sure i did it right but the book i had said to just clean it with kerosene and a soft brush. i couldnt really see how it would filter but it was what was picture and looks a bit like a spark plug shape) flush clean oil through that as well. after looking at my boiler insides im thinking my liner is on its way out. ive got the floor part which is basically flakes and the one on the door is flaking off and some is stuck to the boiler side. so far the thing is running but the flame is orange and looks messy. im gonna get a new nozzle when i can and try to get the tool the helps align the electrodes. the book i got (home depot project book) says to file down the tips and then set them up but the ones i have now arent filed. so should i or shouldnt i? also whats that dial thing on the pump housing that goes between the pump and the motor. Originally Posted by kit352 well heres the update. changed the filter, the old one was really bad and had lots of crud in it. flushed the line somewhat with fresh oil. cleaned the pump filter (im not sure i did it right but the book i had said to just clean it with kerosene and a soft brush. i couldnt really see how it would filter but it was what was picture and looks a bit like a spark plug shape) flush clean oil through that as well. after looking at my boiler insides im thinking my liner is on its way out. ive got the floor part which is basically flakes and the one on the door is flaking off and some is stuck to the boiler side. so far the thing is running but the flame is orange and looks messy. im gonna get a new nozzle when i can and try to get the tool the helps align the electrodes. the book i got (home depot project book) says to file down the tips and then set them up but the ones i have now arent filed. so should i or shouldnt i? also whats that dial thing on the pump housing that goes between the pump and the motor. The electrodes should be filed so there are points on the ends. Over time they will dull again from the heat. Which is why they look the way they do. The dial thing between the motor pump is most likely the air shutter. On an oil burner both air and oil is pumped into the fire box. The volume of oil is set by the pump pressure and the nozzle size (GPH). The air is set by a shutter or vent. Once the nozzle flow is set, which is decided by the volume of heat required (BTU's), the air shutter is used to set the air fuel ratio. Initial measurements for this setting is done by a smoke test. Then fine tuned by measuring the CO2 in the stack. You shouldn't change the shutter unless you can measure the smoke CO2. However, you can use a tooth brush and clean the lint and such that builds up on the shutter and passages. Al. If you will take some pictures of the burner/boiler, post them at www.photobucket.com or similar site, provide a link here, we can probably tell what brand of burner you have be better able to guide you in your quest to get this thing running right. The information from the data plate on the boiler would also be helpful. beckett burner. model afg that takes a .85x80b nozzle at 1gpm. the boiler a utica starfire 3 #sfh3100wt. burner assembley seems rather new but the boiler is getting very long in the tooth. on a side note im thinking i should switch it to a 2 line system if im already doing all this work. i think all ive got left i can resonably do is the nozzle and electrodes. id like to do the liner since it seems no good but i cant find any info on do it or if its needed but i did find them for sale. just no info. if you think pics would help ill go get some. That boiler, properly installed maintained, should last 30-40 years. Your electrodes should be set as follows: 5/16 to 7/16 above the center of the nozzle, 1/16 in front of the nozzle face, have a gap of 1/8 to 5/32. When removing the nozzle/electrode assembly, DO NOT loosen the 5/16 hex head screw on the side of the burner which holds that slide plate in place. If you have already done so, post back I will tell you fix the maladjustment which has likely occured. Spark plug shape??? I think what you may have been cleaning is the strainer on the inlet side of the nozzle. There should be a screen in the fuel pump (presuming a Suntec or Danfoss pump). Pictures, the more the merrier, are always helpful. Originally Posted by kit352 ... on a side note im thinking i should switch it to a 2 line system ... No, don't do that... Google up 'TIGER LOOP' ... if you want the 'self-priming' advantage of 2 lines, this will give it to you without the dis-advantages. well heres the update. i finally recieved my new nozzles and installed them. the flame is much better now. its a uniform cone shape instead of the shaky one from before. its also alot quieter when running, doesnt sound like a jet engine. i still have the original issue though its not as bad. when it doesnt start all i have to literally do is open up the door and take just one wipe on the nozzle tip with a paper towel and itll start right up. my guess now is the electrodes. i kinda filed them to a point and set them at the settings i got from grady. im thinking i screwed up abit though. im gonna get the electrode setting tool and use that. im open to other suggestions in the mean time. the electrodes look worn. it was difficult getting the right settings. it would have been easier to bend the tips but i didnt think that was a good idea. Go ahead bend them. I do it almost every day. got the tool and bent them into position. they were a little shorter than the ones i saw but i got them into shape. same issue. the blower will turn on but no flame. all i have to do is open it up and wipe the nozzle once with cloth, tissue, finger.. and shut the door and it fires right up. i wiped the flame sensor to see if that would help but didnt. i think im gonna have to break down and call the service guy. im stuck. Did you ever replace that pump screen as I suggested way back? no, i didnt. i was told it would have no effect on my situation and i wasnt really sure go about it any way. i didnt want to screw the pump up. if you think its worth it ill order the parts and start looking for the proper diagrams. iwas using the wrong ones when i took it apart before. My crystal ball shows me a HV Transformer with a weak spark. Could the crystal ball be wrong? Does anybody else's crystal ball show the same thing????? I do not want to tell you how WE check in the field, because if you do it wrong, your hair will stand up! Maybe somebody else can tell you. A major investment of about $50 would be required to change it. That's alot of Buds to sacrifice for heat. I also don't know which would keep me warmer, the boiler or the beer! Charlie Well, maybe but maybe a dozen other things too. Nope, I'm not going to tell about the special multi-purpose transformer testing tool. I think it's time to make the call. i think ive got a spare transformer around somewere i might through in. im not gonna use the special multipurpose testing tool cause i know somehow, someway ill get the s--- shocked out of me. i never cared to start old cars that way and im sure not gonna like jumping terminal that way either. i think it is about time to make the call though. ive tried but it really hasnt gotten me any closer to fixing the actual problem. hasnt really cost me much either just a lot of time and i did stuff that ill end up doing every year for tune ups any way. on a side note all this boiler trouble has prompted me to go to college for hvacr and get all my license's. i meet with the admissions wed. ill let you guys know if i its the transformer, i should probably replace it anyway. Grady is right, it can be any number of things! ASSuming nobody fiddled with the oil pressure adjustment, electrodes, etc. etc.... One would FIRST change the filter, screen and nozzle. Check the electrodes. THEN one would look for other things and based on the limited info I would guess bad oil flow (screen, nozzle, filter, clogged or slow line), faulty transformer, clogged flue or boiler full of soot, etc... I THOUGHT YOU CHANGED THE SCREEN. DO IT! It will set you back about $3.00 at Home Depot! This may be your problem! Make sure you take off ALL of the old gasket and clean the pump body and housing cover too! Use a razor knife like for windshield stickers if you need to. Put the new gasket on first! Line up the holes. THEN put on the screen! Put in the 4 bolts BY HAND first, making sure not to pinch the gasket! Then tighten then equally. Do not over tighten! The screen does not come with instructions. I personally would check the transformer with a tool similar to Grady's, but mine is much cheaper and is NOT a multi-purpose one like his. Mine can ONLY be used on burner transformers because it can't be used for anything else! (If you know what I mean) Then you will need to bleed the pump to get it going again. If it still is not working ------------ Maybe calling a servicing company at this point is not such a bad idea. Charlie I suspect if you look at the label on the fuel pump the big number across the center will be A2VA-7116. If so (or any other Suntec model begining with 'A') the screens are readily available. Just follow Charlie's instructions for changing. If it is another pump, post the make model. One of us will be able to tell you about the screen. Before installing a new nozzle, flush the entire fuel system with clean oil. well had the tech come. started by cleaning the pump screen which wasnt that bad he said. then readjusted the electrodes and noticed the nozzle. even though the boiler said 85-80b and thats what the old nozzle was and the one i replaced it with he said it was wrong. reason being is my pump runs at 140 so i was over firing the system. replaced it with a 75-70b i think or around their. adjusted the airvent thing from 8 to around 7 to get the flame right. sytem fired right up after that and has been fine since. hopefully this is the end for this system for now. thanks for all your help. What were the combustion numbers ? CO2 ? O2 ? CO ? smoke ? stack temp ? or did he mumble something like Arghhhh, that's a sharp flame! as he adjusted 'by eye', and slipped his crescent wrench back into his greasy coveralls and left ? I'm surprised no one suggested testing the ignition transformer. This sounds like a classic example of a failing transformer. Pete arrgh! Just noticed it was suggested. I keep seeing the ads and assume I reached the LAST post in the thread; I didn't scroll down past them and missed some other suggestions. I keep seeing the ads and assume I reached the LAST post in the thread; Ads? Is there advertising in these threads? The only ads I saw were between posts 1 2. Kit352: I think your service person has made an error. I just looked at the Beckett OEM Spec Guide it lists no Utica boilers using a .75x70є 'B' nozzle. It does, however, list several using a .85x80є 'B'. A .85gph nozzle at 140# will yeild 1.0 gph. as far as the transformer goes he did the secret test and said it was fine. that alone was worth the cost of the service cause i wasnt gonna do it. as far as the nozzle goes it seems to have fixed it. the boiler says 85x80b and that was what i replaced it with. he said it was to much at 140 which i thought was weird but who was i to argue. he switched to the 75x70b nozzle and said it had too much air so he closed the vent from 8 to about 7. as far as testing things he didnt he just looked at the flame and said it was or wasnt right. he cleaned the pump screen so i could see it and purged the system also. checked the cad cell and flame retention ring. those are the only changes he made. i was with him the entire time. seems to be running fine though. the original flame was hitting the back of the chamber and he said that was bad. i guess time will tell if he was right but for now its working and he didnt do much other than the nozzle. I can understand reducing the nozzle size from .85 to .75 but he should have stayed with the 80є. The angle change probably won't make that much of a difference but the manufacturer specs an 80є. And if the flame were too long with an 80*, wouldn't it be a bit longer with the 70* ? arghhhh... I ain't got no 80's left... think I'll throw a 70 in there ... arghhhh, they're all the same anyway .... Well, let's see here. Using advanced mathematical skills, 75 x 80 + CO2 = ? YEA OK! A x B OEM YEA, WE'LL TRY A 60* arghhhh, they're all the same anyway .... Suggestion: If it stays running with no smoke and you are getting heat right now, AND are on a very limited budget, live with it until the winter is over. At that time your heat bill will be less and maybe you can get a REAL oil burner technician in to do a REAL service call. Like I said before, it's going to be about $250-$300+ for the service and it should take about 2-3 hours if done correctly. If a guy shows up with spanking clean white coveralls and a big fancy van with an 'on board vacuum' and a fancy name, tell him to go to Starbucks and get some breakfast and you will call somebody else. Stick it out, as long as you are not getting CO in the house (I hope you have a detector) and fix it after the cold weather when you have some loot! Good Luck! Charlie well the problem came back 23hrs and $110 later. said maybe the transformer was bad after all and replaced it with a new style ignitor thats puts out 14k and replaced the old electrodes and cad eye. seems fine 10hrs later. also adjusted the flame a bit more towards the 8 side. it wasnt a problem with the service guy not having the nozzles i bought a box of them as spares which are apparently now useless as well as a brand new transformer which was the old stlye like i had. i didnt pay a lot for the spares so its not to bad but im still not sure im getting the right service here. their are only a few companies that service my area and hes from the one i get my oil from. the original guy i had gotten a few months ago from the other company railroaded me on costs and only did half the job. this is why i wanted to do it my self, cant really trust anyone. last visit and parts was around $200, i couldve walked into home depot and bought a whole new burner unit and installed it my self for $20 more. hopefully no more issues. Kit352: I have some questions which may or may not have been asked answered previously but for the sake of a recap hopefully further proper diagnosis: (1) Will the burner refire if you just reset it without wiping the nozzle? (2) If the boiler has any kind of flame observation window or door, does the flame look any different after it has been running for 3-5 minutes than it does 5-10 seconds after ignition? If so; how is it different? (3) Any smoke or unusual sound when the burner fires after a reset as opposed to if it fires on it's own? (4) Do you have an ohm meter know use it? here ya go grady- 1-sometimes it will refire just by hitting the reset button. if it doesnt fire on that cycle (about 1 min) i shut the power off and open the door and wipe the nozzle. starts immediately every single time after that. 2- it did look different at first with the old nozzles. the flame was all jagged and little balls of fire were shooting off the side. with the new nozzle (70b) its a much smaller flame and quiter, more of a cone look too. i havent looked at the flame from start to finish of the burn cycle to see if it looks different. 3-when i reset it smoke always comes out of the cracks. id assume its from the previously unfired oil. the blower also start about 2-3 secs before the light with the old transformer. new one starts immediately on start cycle. 4-yes i have an ohm meter and can use it. I guess you went back and read post #8. Oh well, sometimes cheaper is more expensive. There may still be an oil flow problem though. A new burner won't fix that! It is kinda like buying a cheap car. The price is cheap, but not really. Do you know what I mean? Charlie
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